Well, our guest today is someone that's come into my life. We met a little over a month ago at an event for entrepreneurs in Phoenix, Arizona, and actually had lunch together. I've been on her podcast called the Make Time for Success podcast. And you can find that at MakeTimeForSuccessPodcast.com. And I want you to welcome in, as you always do so warmly, procrastination coach, Dr. Christine Lee. Christine, it's good to see you today. Good to see you again. Thank you so much for inviting me in to speak with your audience. Thanks, Paul. Hey, thanks for making time because when you and I met, heard two things. heard psychologist and procrastination coach. And I thought, well, not that we have the market cornered on it, but certainly voice actors are epic procrastinators. And then the psychologist part, I want to dig into that too, because as performers and as specifically, I guess, as voice actors too, we have some issues that affect us in terms of mindset and psychology. So want to dig into all of that today. Where I want to start, if you'll indulge me, is with probably the thing that comes up most, the psychological term that I've heard most in conversation, in the Facebook groups with voice actors, in my own community, at the VO Pro community, and that is imposter syndrome. I know a bit about it. I occasionally suffer from it. Here's what I don't know. Where does it come from? Why do we seemingly all have it? love this question. It's a wonderful topic. I understand that it tends to be something that is more seen in females. So I don't know if that's your experience. You might be seeing it across voice over professionals. But I would say that the thing I've learned about imposter syndrome, that it is a sign that you're actually rising. That when you get the sense that I'm in the wrong place, somebody has choosing me with the wrong framework and a big mistake has been made, it is likely that you have done actually really well and you've risen to a different level or status in your organization or with your profession or with your skills. And all of a sudden you're in unfamiliar territory. And I think there is something female about this, you know, to kind of... really make sure that everything is just fitting the right way. I don't know. That's my assumption about that and making sure that we're not doing something that's illegitimate or going to cause anybody any distress or cause the system or community some sort of problem. But the real problem is when we're not actually recognizing our own growth, advancement, development, improvement, and the fact that we can actually assume that this new feeling is actually something that we're going to get accustomed to eventually, actually quite soon, but only if we tolerate that feeling of unease in the beginning. So it's this bit of discomfort, but it's actually, if we practice seeing these bits of discomfort as just part of the journey, as nothing catastrophic, actually as anything but, it's actually a sign that you've been respected, that you're moving ahead, that you're growing. and that things are actually going really well for you. Does imposter syndrome significantly hold us back and if so, can we manage it? I think that from what I understand from, have a colleague who actually specializes in this area and she says like in the executive space that it's, pretty much widespread, that this is something that many people experience. So whether it holds you back, I'm not sure, because these are people who are rising to top levels of organizations, but can it hold you back in your own performance? I think very much so. Because when you think about, let's say a voiceover actor thinking, well, that job is too big for me. Well, that is too high status for me. Well, there are too many fellow competitors for me to try. And I know you and I think alike and that we're the kind of people who are like, let's put the hat in the ring. Let's go put our best foot forward. It actually doesn't matter if I'm an imposter or not. I'm going to give my best shot. at this opportunity and just getting you yourself to be that person who shows up despite the fear and who shows up despite the stories of the context that you're in, that's going to just up-level your performance, I would say, that you're actually going to accelerate your progress in the field rather than hold yourself back. So again, I think you can use anything, your fear, your worries, your self-stories, your past history as a launch pad. moving forward instead of another reason to kind of watch Netflix and chill and not send out those resumes or those tapes or whatever happens these days with voiceover actors, those reels, you know, where your wonderful voice could actually be the perfect thing for someone, right? I 100%. I think a lot of it comes down to, and we'll get into this in a little bit too, the stories that we tell ourselves in our heads. I have a very dear friend in the business who is crazy accomplished. She does national campaigns on the regular. She is a rock star in our business. And when I first met her, Christine, she said, you know what? I have imposter syndrome. And that blew me away because this was somebody that was very accomplished. And to your point that You know, in the C-suite in corporate America, it's riddled, apparently, with imposter syndrome. That surprised me because I always had thought, well, when you get there, wherever there is, that it goes away. Apparently, it does not. Do you feel like imposter syndrome is permanent or not? think it's a habit. And as we know, habits can be very changeable and shiftable. So it's really up to the person and how much work they're willing to do in terms of experimenting with a non-imposter framework, whether the imposter syndrome sticks around or not. And I was thinking the other day, just because I do this while walking the dogs, that, you know, speaking in public, actually, public speaking, presentation is one of people's highest rated fears, right? Highest stress level stress points, life stress points, I think. And how do you get over that? And of course, we, you and I know tons of people who have gotten over the fear of public speaking, I would say myself included. And there just is a process, right? It's not magic necessarily, but it does involve what are the stories that you're telling yourself, right? The woman you just referenced, she's saying, I have imposter syndrome, which is really kind of identity level for her, even though she's super accomplished and somebody that we can all admire. And that's a great example of how you never know what's going on behind the walls for someone, right? No matter how strong their voice might sound, sometimes the voice gives it away, sometimes it doesn't. again, we just always have to remember that we have a say in what storyline we're following. So if you want to get rid of the jitters, write a better story about those jitters, right? Are the jitters just like, oh, that's me trying to protect myself again, or that's me getting really excited about this job and it's coming through in the first couple of takes, or is it like, I'm never going to get rid of the jitters? Those are very different stories to tell yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about another one. Change course a little bit here because this one I believe is an absolute pandemic psychologically and that is perfectionism. Perfectionism, Brene Brown, one of my favorite authors says that perfectionism is a defensive move. That if I look perfect and act perfect and do all the right things, then I will shield myself from being judged. Do you agree with that? And if so, why is that so? pervasive. Yeah, perfectionism is a tough nut. It really is. I do think it's a subsection of procrastination, procrastination being the larger umbrella, and that there is a smaller subsection of perfectionists. I have never included myself in that category because I've always seen myself as a person who's like occasionally messing up things. So I feel like I'm a little too scatterbrained and disorganized to be a perfectionist, but I've certainly worked with people who have really struggled with this. And when I say struggle is with a capital S because when you decide perfectionism is your strategy, or if you believe that it's your only way of being, it really is like a stranglehold on your energy, your creativity, your ability to move and spontaneously problem solve and use your innate skills. of getting things done because you're always looking for how can this be better? How can I make this perfect? Is this perfect enough? Who is going to say this, that, and the other thing about it? And so I've really, over the years, really felt empathy for people who struggle with perfectionism because I feel like it's like walking a single line through life instead of knowing that there are millions of paths you can. travel, it's just limiting yourself so much to the options and possibilities in front of you. And I think if we can get people to just relax that even one or 2%, we're doing them a huge favor. We're coaching them that there's safety to be found and it's not in your performance. It's actually in believing and knowing and trusting yourself that you are safe no matter what, no matter what your performance looks like. And for those who are grow up actually in relatively dysfunctional families, I have found that there's a connection that the dysfunction in the original childhood home leads to the child assuming a particular type of role in the family. One that doesn't mess up, good child, perhaps parentified child, and that extends into the person's adulthood where they're thinking everybody needs them to be. just this perfect role. I don't know if voice over actors suffer from this in particular. Let me know what you have seen in terms of perfectionism. Absolutely. So many delay the start of either their career or in more, you know, down in the weeds sort of stuff. I can't put my website out there until it's perfect. I can't put my demo out there until it's perfect. I can't look for work in a particular genre until I am absolutely trained. Some people are professional students. They spend all their... And this is coming from me who I am a huge proponent of training. Most people are under trained. There's a very small subsection that is... I won't say overtrained, but they use training as an excuse to not put themselves out there. And that makes me crazy. Yeah, I could see why, because you can see how much business they could be generating for themselves, how much they could be helping people who really need their talent and how much time is being lost. And I think when we're caught in perfectionism, we tend to lose track of how much time is being lost in the struggle. And I get you in terms of, I'm laughing because I'm flashing back to my dissertation advisor who, you know, I had a very subtle but consistent way of delaying the end of my dissertation. And one day he just said, if you go to the library again and start reading again, you have to bring a quarter in every time I meet with you. And it was the funniest thing because I, at the time, I'm a very competitive person. So I was like, you are not getting a quarter from me, but I really needed that limit setting because I could have researched the topic forever. Right. And it was kind of time for me to just say, enough already. So it really helps to have support, qualified support, loving support in your corner because left to our own devices, we could go on forever and forget that time exists. And that's really costly, I think. You and I talked about this on the Make Time for Success podcast and I brought up the concept of, as a sort of the flip side of the coin and a strategy to manage perfectionism, the concept in business of speed to market. In other words, while one person is overthinking and in your case over researching, over planning, another person has already gotten something quite imperfect out into the market and has iterated on it half a dozen times. and has the benefit of that experience and knowledge. And so I think that's one way that we can sort of embrace our mistakes. In other words, embrace them as necessary to be able to learn and develop and grow. Yeah, really, I love that part of the conversation. And I think it's so important in business to have that flow, to have that freedom to say, you know what, let's try this, let's float this. And I have come to understand part of the way through our, the coach that we both share, James Wedmore, that mistakes are really just part of the process and that will enable us to learn. more quickly to get things to market more quickly and to survive what feels sometimes like the brutal process of being in business for yourself or being in business period, right? That if one mistake is going to just tank your whole framework and system and mission, then it's not that strong a mission or framework or business. Not only do we have to have courage and that kind of fortitude, But we also have to just accept that mistakes are part of the development process of our products, of our services, of our voice, that we're gonna make mistakes, but that we're all gonna survive those mistakes. And it's much more important to do the service and the delivery and the content production and the thinking about how are we gonna grow this. I think it's really important to mention that when it comes to our energy in terms of growing our business or having a business, We want to make sure that our energy is all in the same direction. If you are thinking about imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and all of your mistakes, and you're sitting on your work, it's really drawing away from all the energy that can be moving very powerfully forward to market, to greater income, to greater notoriety, to everything that you're wishing for. And it's okay to wish for that because you deserve that. right? You deserve the recognition for your hard work and the training and your native talents. And I think we forget to emphasize that part of the equation. We're so good at being afraid. And I just say, get better at being really powerful. It is okay, right? It's okay in your life to do that. We talked, I mentioned earlier, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves in our heads, and that could be, you know, they run the gamut, right? What are some of the most common stories you hear from the people that you work with, and how do we sort of manage those? I tend to work with midlife women who have gone through a lot in their lives. They've had the families, they've had the careers, and they're in this major second phase of life. So what I tend to hear is this kind of dread and this heaviness and this exhaustion. So I think it's energetic exhaustion. I think there's an overwhelm again of this being female and of having to feel like you need to manage and hold everything for everyone. without having really built-in supports, right? Society doesn't really support the older woman very well, right? The older woman is supposed to be the caregiver, the clutter keeper, the person who maintains their perfect health, and all the rest, right? The memory keeper for the family, the wisdom keeper. And that's all great, but we need to find a way to kind of rejuvenate and reinvigorate. that phase of life for people. So the story really is that though I want to do stuff, though I know it needs to get done, I'm hating this. I'm hating this process. I'm hating this feeling of overwhelm. And so I'm going to stop. I'm going to protect myself and I'm going to stop. I would say this is, although I'm talking about midlife women, this is a story that maybe we've all had, right? As a train of thought or a habit. And what I love to do is help people. to dig up that story and totally replant the story. It's gardening season over here in my house. So let's talk about planting brand new stories for yourself and just experimenting. Again, no guarantees because everything can be a flop, everything could be a mistake. But when it comes to our energy, we're responsible for directing our energy, preserving it, but also using it so that our time and life is not one big dread scene. Right? This is not a horror movie. This is your life. Let's make it joyful because we know that's actually what we're all craving anyway. You mentioned clutter and two things popped into my head. Physical clutter and psychological clutter. And I think they're tied together and you can tell me whether you agree or whether I'm correct or not. Are they related? And if so, why do we build up clutter? What purpose does it serve our subconscious or even our conscious? Those are complicated questions, great questions. I would say I fully believe that physical clutter is related to internal clutter. And I will always say that I am a clutter surfer myself, but I'm also someone who's really dug in to the dynamics and the energy of clutter. And I do believe we, as human beings, are energetic bodies. We're basically emitting, creating. regenerating energy as we go. And we make the mistake of thinking that our physical clutter doesn't have energy when really it has very powerful, oftentimes heavy energy, energy of disappointment, undone things, unmade decisions, past identities and selves and partners. It's like all that stuff. And And the women that I work with, it's oftentimes also the stuff of dead relatives. It's like real stuff that you feel attached to, but also there's a repellent nature, but there's also this, wow, this is like a treasure. So talk about complicated energy, right? And so, yeah, if you have difficulty from a psychological internal vantage point of saying, I make this decision and I stand by it and I'm okay with it, you're likely gonna have some symptoms of physical clutter in your life because we have so much, any one of us is busy enough that we can let mail go, we can let the bills go, we can let the clutter pile up in a corner or in a closet. It's not criminal, it's just something that's a sign of a busy life. But then when we go and turn that clutter into some meaning about how quality we are as a person, That's when things really go south is when we're starting to attach our identity with the clutter. And so then the presence of the clutter is this constant messaging back and forth. Every time you pass that corner, there I am being the lame-o again. And this is what I try to rescue people from that. It's not that serious, right? It's not that serious. You're not that pathetic. And the clutter is actually not that powerful, right? But we get. into this energetic battle with clutter. And then it does start to sap our energy. really is a danger. As is, as you mentioned, the internal clutter. I oftentimes think it's that critical voice. It's that mean girl voice, mean guy voice that can do the most damage when it comes to our being aligned with our energy, our working through our purpose and putting stuff to market and showing up with this brightness and full energy that when you're doubting yourself, that doubt is really a powerful force to be reckoned with. And let's get rid of that doubt. Again, it's okay to be powerful. That's going to be the theme for today. Awesome. actually, Christine has put together a wonderful free download for our audience. can go to maketimeforsuccess.com, I'm sorry, maketimeforsuccesspodcast.com slash clutter and tell us what that download is all about. Christine. That download is from a few years ago when I hired a colleague and she happens to live in my vicinity. And I read about her in the local paper many years ago. And I just knew I was going to at some point experiment with inviting someone to help me with my space. And we've become friends and she really did help me. And she gave me some really simple ideas, but I loved her. way of just shaping the whole practice of decluttering. that's a whole other situation of what are we actually doing in our space and what do we want to do with our space? So I put our best concepts in this PDF download, which you will get at maketimeforsuccesspodcast.com slash clutter. And I think it helps you to really review what's going on here. what's at stake, what's important to me, and what do I want to do first? And sometimes when we're really stuck and we're really overwhelmed, the best thing to do is just figure out what you're going to do first. That one minute, five minute, one to three item task list that can just get you started and give you that can do energy back. And we'll put the link to that freebie in the show notes and description below. single time I talk to you, Christine, I not only learn a ton, but I always walk away feeling better. Thanks for taking time to join us today. Thank you so much, Paul. I really enjoy talking with you. I love all the books that you refer to and I love your mindful energy, right? That you are such a supporter of our best work. So thank you for being that kind of leader. You're kind to say that. I appreciate that. The podcast is called Make Time for Success. can find it at MakeTimeForSuccessPodcast.com. Dr. Christine Lee, thanks again. And folks, we will see you back here again very soon.